Sobre quem contratou o Gehl para o projeto de 2007.
“At that point we were hired by ITDP which is an international NGO (explica o que é o ITDP). We had a demo contract at the time to assist ITDP with expertise whithin urban design and public spaces. So we were not hired directly by anyone in the municipality or in the city of São Paulo, but we were invited in as experts by ITDP in that process and conducted only a couple of workshops in that process. And then we were asked to summarize some of our analyses and recommendations in this mini report that was produced afterwards.”
“It was ITDP but as far as I know, some people from the municipality participated in the workshops and in the dialogue that ITDP had at that time. The way that I understand ITDP is operating is that they get funding from different investors … ” (ligação interrompida em 05’15)
(reinicia em 06’20”) e ela responde se o projeto foi implementado, ainda que parcialmente. Helle diz que não sabe exatamente, não teve contato com a prefeitura na época e que teria que perguntar a eles o que aconteceu. Até onde ela sabe, nada aconteceu.
07’17” até 08’12”
Sobre as conexões entre os projetos de 2007 e 2013 e sobre as diferenças entre eles:
“The similarities of course are very (?) because we have used the same methodology. We were invited because of our methodology. The way that we analyse the space, that we go out and encounter people and observe what type of activities are taking place, in the spaces, in the streets. It’s the same methodology that we have applied in both projects. So that’s the reason why you can find similarities. And then also because none of them have been implemented since the first time some of the things…there should be some similarities, you could say.”
08’39” até 09’44”
Sobre as semelhanças das recomendações dos dois projetos que abrangem construções de cafés, quiosques, mobiliários urbanos. Ela é perguntada se isso é por causa da metodologia.
“It’s also due to the methodology and is due to the parameters of the site as it is today. I mean, some of the same issues were there also back in 2007 in terms of the space not being as active as it could be, as if it is going to be acting as the heart of the city, the connectivity with public transport, the connectivity with walking (?) and so forth. A lot of those physical conditions have stayed the same. But this second time we were asked to not only look at Anhangabaú but also consider other spaces downtown for physical interventions.”
09’51” até 14’14”
Sobre as diferenças entre os dois projetos.
“I would say we were primarily hired to not do a design, not do a star architect (?) (corte). We have developed a concept and we were hired to apply our methodology and we were analysing through a capacity building and collaborative process. So we have conducted now a series of bigger workshops were we had about 100 people participating in 3 big workshops where we have been observing the streets and spaces. And the difference between the design levels in this is that the Anhangabaú’s space have been developed in collaboration with all this different people to a concept design. It has never been our job to finalize the design or to do any sort of detailed (?) We were asked to take the analyses, develop a program of activities and then get to a concept design. But the other spaces that we’ve worked with we have suggested temporary projects. And this pilot projects are temporary projects that can be installed for a period of two months and by doing something in two months you can change the constellation of a space, you can test different (?) you can implement bicycles, or to make better pedestrian connections, you can test different types of evening activities or activities in general (?) spaces and see whether you can change the dynamic of a space. Before you actually start losing a lot of money on permanent solutions or permanent design.” Ela continua falando que às vezes é difícil envolver as pessoas em projetos de outras maneiras e com os projetos temporários, a ideia é deixar as pessoas mais envolvidas. Então ela fala sobre como eles estudam o espaço, eles contam as pessoas que andam, como eles podem aumentar o número de pedestres ou aumentar a quantidade de ciclistas. Então eles fazem estudos e contagens antes e depois da implementação do projeto piloto para medir se estão sendo bem-sucedidos.
14’20” até 14’42”
Sobre o custo do projeto de 2007, ela diz que não lembra. Ela acha que não foi muito mas não lembra a quantia exata. Ela disse que foram um ou dois pequenos encontros.
15’22” até 18’20”
Sobre a inexistência de pessoas em situação de rua e ambulantes no projeto de 2013:
“Well, I think that this issue is very very difficult. I think we also have learned, I think, it’s difficult to survey and determine in a survey who is and who is not homeless. How do you determine that by the look of people? Our general philosophy is that we need to make spaces accessible for everyone, we need to make sure that the public spaces are inclusive and that there is diversity of spaces in totality in the city so as many people as possible can feel integrated and get access to goods and needs an so forth. I couldn’t say exactly what the differences were, I haven’t myself, as I mentioned it, been part of the couple of workshops that were conducted back in 2007. So with my eyes I haven’t seen what’s the difference between the two times. In general I would say the social structures and how social issues are (?) in São Paulo has not been part of our job, so to say. We are architects and we have a certain methodology and we make people visible in the planning process. We don’t necessarily go and suggest solutions to how to solve issues or problems about homelessness or illegal trade or things like that. Unfortunately that’s not part of our expertise and it’s not part of our job prescription either that we can go and make recommendations about this things. I know it’s an issue and it’s not that I don’t think we should definitely… I mean, we’ve talked a lot about it in the workshops that we’ve had and there is a big big concern… And all about de 100 people that have been part of that process I think… What happens is that I couldn’t say specifically what is the difference between the two years we have worked in São Paulo. ”
18’54” até 19’39”
Questionada sobre a facilidade de se identificar uma pessoa em situação de rua e se essa questão foi levantada.
“Absolutely and we have done quite (?) surveys as well. I think it’s difficult, really. Every city we’ve done, we do this public life surveys, were we do counts of pedestrians and we also try to map the different activities that are taking place within a space. But we also do that in a way that we are not discriminating anyone. Whether we’ve been doing this in Seattle or NY or Mar Del Plata, whether we’ve been working all over the world, we don’t wanna map exactly as I say this is (?) a homeless people because we don’t know whether they are homeless, whether they are poor, or whether they’re trading something. So we didn’t want to categorize people, we could say that way, but we try to talk more about in which (?) If we want to make the space more likely, more active at different times of day or year, which (?) do we need to activate that doesn’t feel safe today for example and what other (?) are perfectly happy and successful as they are and so forth. So we have been trying to think more about it in general terms instead of being very specific in our surveys.”
18’57” até 21’23”
Perguntamos a ela, considerando que há pessoas em situação de rua no Anhangabaú, como o projeto de 2013 contempla essas pessoas.
“I don’t think… I would like to see it that the space that has been suggested now, in terms of programming, could allow everybody to be there. Our aim has not been to exclude anyone at any giving point of time. But again, we are not suggesting that our concept design will solve any of those issues. So we haven’t specified and said ‘this particular corner could be good for homeless people’. We have tried to address the activities in a more general way throughout the space and we hope that the way has now been activated and has allowed anyone to be there (?) the space. And then the municipality have to solve social issues in other ways too and find out in general how to solve homelessness in downtown in general.”
21’45” até 23’02”
Questionada se o Gehl entrou em contato com Jorge Wilheim em 2007 e 2013, Helle disse que sobre 2007 ela não sabe porque não estavam encabeçando esse projeto, então teríamos que perguntar ao ITDP. Mas eles tiveram uma ótima reunião com ele nesse processo em outubro e conversaram sobre como a sociedade mudou desde que esse projeto foi implantado pela primeira vez e o que os espaços públicos precisam fazer no século 21. Eles estavam preocupados e a cidade também estava em cuidar das questões de “herança” nesse espaço importante da cidade.
23’14” até 28’22”
Sobre o que Jorge disse quando soube que o Anhangabaú teria uma transformação, ela enfatizou que o Gehl foi convidado apenas para um projeto conceitual e que as pessoas no Brasil agora são responsáveis por colocá-lo em prática e implementar o projeto de fato. Disse que o arquiteto estava preocupado logicamente com questões de “herança” do local e de ser o coração da cidade. Ela acha que ele entende que o local não funciona da melhor maneira hoje e ele estava recebendo bem a ideia de que precisa de mudança. Eles não entraram muito em detalhes. Tudo o que eles desevolveram com esse conteúdo até agora no projeto é muito básico. É tentar fazer uma superfície bem flexível permitindo que muitos eventos aconteçam no local, permitindo um acesso mais universal em vez de ter vários níveis. O projeto também pretende preservar a maior quantidade de árvores e epaços possíveis e o projeto sugere plantar ainda mais árvores porque existe um problema com o calor e o espaço é muito grande, mais árvores ajudariam a criar uma atmosfera mais humana. Por fim, o terceiro elemento que foi trabalhado nesse conceito é tentar ativar os espaços nas extremidadades. O térreo não é muito “ativo”, então construir pequenos pavilhões poderia ativar esses espaços. E então a água surgiu em muitas discussões porque existe a memória do antigo rio que costumava correr no local. Existe uma vontade de resgatar essa qualidade natural. Pegar essses conceitos que foram levantados e detalhá-los em um próximo projeto é responsabilidade da cidade, das pessoas e das companhias que vão levá-lo adiante.
30’07” até 36’15”
Sobre como os dois projetos foram conduzidos, o de 2007 e 2013, Helle responde que não sabe dizer muito sobre o de 2007.
“The way we did the three large workshops last year in 2013 was started with a big workshop where we have developed something that we call “the twelve quality criteria” and those are published in some of our books. It’s kind of qualitative assessment were you go out into a space and discuss with each other how is the micro climate, if you feel safe, how is traffic solved in this area, what kind of activities can I do, what is the scale of the space, etc. So that are twelve different questions and the first workshop did. Everybody who was invited came to walk around downtown to a lot of different places and they were asked to access those spaces themselves. So they should find out what were the qualities and what were the issues about every space and then we worked together for three days to use those results to make a kind of a vision to (?) how would be like public spaces to develop in São Paulo in the future, what those different spaces need to do. We looked at the whole downtown and we had a big map down on the floor and everybody got to put their heart, they had like a heart shaped post it, and everybody got to put their heart on a place in the city where they felt something needed to be done. (…)” Ela continua descrevendo cada etapa dos três dias de workshop ( não descreverei aqui, mas se acharem que precisam dessa info, eu faço a transcrição) .
“So this is the way that we did it last year. I think in 2007 the only thing that was conducted at that time was a very very quick analysis like counts and then a discussion around those counts and those data collect.”
36’37” até 37’18”
A prefeitura criou uma ferramenta online para o público participar do projeto e Helle responde que isso não faz parte da metodologia do Gehl e que foi a prefeitura que desenvolveu depois que eles terminaram o design conceitual.
37’45” até 39’38”
Helle fala sobre a diferença entre o projeto conceitual e o projeto piloto. Os projetos piloto são intervenções temporárias que serão implementados por um período de um ou dois meses, por exemplo o Largo São Francisco, que vai receber uma intervenção por dois meses onde um novo layout do espaço vai ser testado com novas atividades. É um lugar com grande potencial para eventos noturnos porque há muitos estudantes lá. Agora a prefeitura está envolvendo diferentes departamentos para trabalhar no espaço. O departamento de cultura vai ser responsável por fazer alguns eventos. O departamento de trânsito vai ser responsável pelo tráfego de pedestres e biciletas, etc.
“But the specification and difference between the design and the pilot project is that the pilot project is a temporary intervention and the design concept for Anhangabaú is not going to be implemented as a temporary project, it’s a concept that the city will now further detail.”
40’20” até 41’18”
Sobre a data presente no contrato de doação, Helle diz que não faz ideia e que temos que conversar diretamente com Gustavo sobre isso.
Ela diz que a data não foi feita por eles e não sabe quem colocou as datas mas que podemos perguntar ao cliente.
42’16” até 44’46”
Questionada sobre quando o projeto para o Anhangabaú será implementado ela diz que não sabe.
“I think the pilot project, I think the purpose was to try and implement the pilot projects and we have designed four pilot projects that should be temporary interventions. I really hope that they can all be implemented here in 2014. I think it would be fantastic to see how people respond to the new places, the new bicycle infrastructure the (?) and the activation of those spaces. The last thing I heard (?) was that they were hoping to implement two of the pilot projects in April or May and introduce some of them before or after Cups (não tenho certeza dessa parte). But with the Anhangabaú I’m not sure about it. To be honest, I don’t know exactly how the city would like do take this process further. I think they would like to find a way, a company (?) or something like that can be engaged in the actual detailing of the (?) but exactly how this is being taking forward I don’t know. I think they would love to develop it further so it could be implemented over the next two or three years the latest. “No, I think the city needs to officially, I think they need to put the project out to tender to allow companies in Brazil to engage in the process and when they have selected a company that can further detail the space and then that has to go into a design period where the project is being detailed and then has to be built afterwards. It’s a big big space so only for that project it’s gonna take at least, to my knowledge, one and a half year to build.”
44’56” até 46’38”
Helle é questionada sobre quando o Itaú começou as conversas com Gehl.
“I came in September 2012, I was invited to do one of these São Paulo events, talks. I did a talk there I think about 300 hundred people showed up or something like that. And then I was contacted probably in march again. I was in São Paulo twice in September and November in 2012. That was right when you had the change of mayor and all that happening. And then after I did these public talks where I showed some of our work and talked about our ideas about cities for people. I was then contacted by the new administration in March I think, it was about the thoughts that downtown needed to be one of the focus areas for the new administration”
46’56” até 47’06”
Questionada se nessa época Itaú disse alguma coisa sobre a intenção de pagar uma consulta sobre o Vale do Anhangabaú, ela disse que sim.
Sabrina: By that time, Itaú said something about Vale do Anhangabaú? About their willing to pay for a consultancy of Gehl Architects about the Vale do Anhangabaú? Helle: Yes Fabricio: By march 2013? Helle: Yes Sabrina: 2013 or 2012? Helle: No, 2013.
47’07” até 47’30”
Sobre o Itaú estar presente no primeiro workshop de 2013, Helle diz que acha que sim.
47’30” até 1h00’00”
Sabrina: We had information from inside Itaú that Itaú first contacted Gehl Architects to make a project and after the project were done they offered it to the municipality. Does it proceed? Helle: No, how could that happen? Because… No, no. I don’t understand because the work was being carried out as a collaborative process, with a lot of people involved. With people of all these different departments, local mayor, with social groups with all these universities and so forth. So of course, that couldn’t have been done in (?). So the work was carried out in a very opened and collaborative process. Fabricio: But the question is who did talked to you first actually. We have this doubt because we would like to know how was that conducted inside the administration. What we mean is first person or first institution that talked to Gehl was Itaú or the municipality? Helle: I was contacted by the international department first. They asked (?) the former administration to come and do our São Paulo work, our São Paulo talk. Fabricio: That is 2012, right? Helle: 2012, yes. I don’t know exactly the other things. To my knowledge, Itaú has been part of the whole process from the beginning (problema na conexão). I was contacted by the new administration in February or March last year. Itaú has been part of that process from the beginning. It was not that the bank contacted us to do a secret project and then afterwards gave it to the city as a present. That would never have been possible to do. So I don’t have any further detail about that but I’m sure if you contact Itaú or Gustavo or Fernando directly from the city they can also confirm that directly. Fabricio: Helle, sorry to keep on this issue. The idea is not to check whether you did or not any secret project. I mean, the question is we would like to know who first conducted the talk with Gehl Architects. What I mean is the project that is processed in 2013, how did that start, I mean, first contact was made by the mayor, by the municipality or by Itaú Bank? That is the doubt only. We are quite sure that it’s not possible to do any secret project we just wanted to know who was the first to contact Gehl Architects and actually ask for the job. Helle: I have been contacted by the city. Fabricio: Do you remember the month exactly? Helle: I think it was in March as far as I remember. Fabricio: In march, when the first workshop took place, you were contacted by the city? Helle: No, the first workshop started later but the first e-mail correspondence I had was when the new administration had been in place (?) for three months or something like that. They had started (?). That’s when I was first contacted and the dialogue started about what were the needs in São Paulo, how could the Gehl methodology be applied and so forth. Fabricio: We are also aware that Itaú paid for the project. So, at any point, you may have had talks with the bank or at least you got to know that issue. So when that was that first announced to Gehl, because I’m quite sure you have to set a schedule or make all the choices of work and that is made after the contract, right? As we know now that Itaú paid for the project, when was the first time that Gehl was contacted by Itaú? Helle: We’ve had been contacted at the same time almost as part of that same process. As far as I understand and in my contact with Itaú, our contract was directly with Itaú and they have a (?) culture program they have a business (?) in terms of giving back to the society and the issues of the public spaces they felt could work very well with their focus on projects that they support. So we’ve been hired directly with Itaú to conduct this methodology and approach as a series of workshops. When we have been invited people from all these different departments within the city. We have from our side sorted Itaú as the sponsor and our ultimate client we had thought about that needs to be the city because they are responsible for delivering the public space at the end. The bank would never be able to do that, it’s a private entity end everything else. But ultimately of course we could say our client has been the bank but we have conducted the work for including everybody in the city that needs to know about this project and to be able to take this forward because they ultimately have to detail the project afterwards and make it successful with everybody’s participation. Sabrina: So we can use the date like march 2013 for the first contact with Itaú, right? Helle: Yes. And the city. Sabrina: Both at the same time. Helle: Yes. We were contacted by the city but the bank has been part of the approach (?) from the beginning.
1h01’00” até final
Agradecimentos. Helle pede para ver a publicação antes, etc.